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When In Rome...
Caesar knows Xena is coming -- just like she planned.
RUDNICK:
[196] Speaking of forgiveness, of yourself and others, fixations, and so forth, we see that again in WHEN IN ROME... (62/316). Caesar's back and Xena is a little more subdued, but she has this obsession thing going with Caesar.SEARS:
[197] Right.RUDNICK:
[198] I've heard some interesting comments about how some people didn't like the scene where Xena was going in to assassinate Caesar, but I remember myself thinking at the time, "That's part of her plan".SEARS:
[199] And it was also a ruse. She never intended to kill him.RUDNICK:
[200] Exactly.SEARS:
[201] One of the things, and I guess the audience has figured this out by now, I like to fool people. I like to make them think one thing is happening and then just completely throw them a curve ball. But not just a curve ball that comes out of left field, a curve ball that makes sense. It's just the way it's presented, you don't see it immediately.[202] When we get to it in SACRIFICE I, I like the fact so many people thought Gabrielle really did release Seraphin to go and tell her daughter she was coming. Many people were saying when she got to that point, "Oh my God, she did it again! She's betraying Xena!" They didn't realize it was a trick. It was really the same thing in WHEN IN ROME... (62/316). The premise I had with Xena was that Xena's not stupid. She knows her obsession with Caesar cost her dearly back in THE DELIVERER. This time she's smarter. The difference is, Caesar doesn't know that. He still thinks he can manipulate her.
[203] In this particular case, the audience was once again taking Caesar's role. They were sitting there thinking, "Well, she can do it again. We've seen it before". But that's not what was going on. She used his assumption of her to her benefit. He assumed, by what he saw, he couldn't figure out what her plan was, so he figured, "The Xena I know, what is she here for? Well, she's here to kill me". And in the past, that would be very true. So, he made that assumption, and because of that assumption, he was waiting for her, which is exactly what she knew he would do.
RUDNICK:
[204] And again, this only becomes clear in retrospect, after you've seen the whole thing, and you say to yourself "That dirty guy Steve Sears, he got me again!"SEARS:
[205] [laughs] I *like* that reaction.RUDNICK:
[206] Interesting too is another milestone in the path of Gabrielle as she stands there while Crassus is on the block and that ring is reflecting right in his face. You have to ask yourself, "Was that on purpose? Or was it an accident?" You are not really quite sure.SEARS:
[207] [pause] There's a lot of debate about that. I can tell you that it can be read any way you want. She did not do it deliberately, I know that. What was going on with Gabrielle at that moment was what was going on internally with her.[208] In one draft, I had really played up what Crassus had done in the past. So when he's out there and looking out at the crowd, in one draft, I had him see the glint of metal and he focuses in on Gabrielle. The ring is on Gabrielle's thumb. She looks right at him and she points her thumb down. Now you can imagine the message *that* would send.
RUDNICK:
[209] You cannot get much more deliberate than that.SEARS:
[210] So after much discussion on that thing and what it implied, I pulled back on that and I just had her in the crowd. But I had her in the crowd for a very important reason. She could have let Crassus go. She could have given Crassus the ring, and they still might have gotten away. But Gabrielle had to make a choice of justice. "Do I become a judge here?" At first she said no, that's why she fought against Xena. She couldn't judge someone to be executed. That's why she was saying to Crassus, "Don't worry, you're not going to be killed. I won't let you die".[211] When she found out he was in fact the person she had heard about and that he had lied, and more than likely he was going to continue doing this, she had a choice to either give him the ring and actively be a participant in his living, or not do anything and leave it up to Caesar. She left it up to Caesar. Was he going to say, "Let him die", to save face, or was he going to save his ally and lose face? She threw it up to the Fates. Now she could have easily left the coliseum, but because she knew she might have condemned a man to death she forced herself to witness it.
[212] We don't have public executions in this country, for a number of reasons, and I'm not saying that we should, but I will tell you one thing, if people actually watch an execution they'll think twice about condemning someone. So when she goes out there she realizes the responsibility of her actions. And she's going to be there when it happens.
RUDNICK:
[213] And I was also going to say as regards this episode, bravo on *ducking* the timeline problem, because all the players were around historically at that time. If such a thing like that had really happened to Crassus, how would you know?SEARS:
[214] This one I researched quite a bit. I've got a 50 year leeway here with some of the things I am playing with. In this particular one, as an episode standing on its own, this could have happened, because Crassus was killed, and although we did a super of Syria, the Parthians were the ones who killed him. It was Greater Syria. Anyway, that's where he was supposedly killed.[215] Well, what if he wasn't? What if people thought he died there but no one knew about this thing going on. Theoretically it could work. Vercinix was my version of... I can never pronounce his name...
RUDNICK:
[216] Vercingetorix?SEARS:
[217] Vercingetorix, there you go, thank you. Everybody else can say that but me. [both laugh] Vercinix was my version of that. Now obviously he wasn't kept for five years in the episode, but he served the same purpose. My original idea on this episode was actually based on the incident where [Ross] Perot hired those people to go into Iran to rescue his men. I thought it was a great idea for Xena to do a rescue mission in the heart of Rome. But there was a lot in there historically where you could say, "Oh, yeah, that could have happened". We still have Pompeii and Caesar left, you know.RUDNICK:
[218] [smiles] We do indeed.SEARS:
[219] The Triumvirate.
Spoilers
Pompeii is unimpressed with Caeasr at the colisseum.
RUDNICK:
[220] I'm not trying to pump or prime you for spoilers here, but is it likely we'll see something about that next season?SEARS:
[221] [laughs diabolically] Let's see... [pause] I don't want to mislead you, but I'll say, "Yes". Put it this way, Pompeii is coming back, Caesar is certainly coming back. There are some more historical explorations. Once again, keep in mind our penchant for taking a historical event and slightly skewing it.[222] So there is an episode called A GOOD DAY, which has been filmed, in fact I have the first cut right here on my desk and I'll be looking at it in a few minutes, and it does deal with another interaction between Pompeii and Caesar.
RUDNICK:
[223] Those are great characters, both of them. They do well together.SEARS:
[224] Yes. They both have their own take on history and their own destiny, but they both consider themselves Rome, which obviously, during the civil war, was the whole problem.
SACRIFICE
A bona fide continuity shot from a scene in SACRIFICE that didn't make the final cut. The author is on the far right.
RUDNICK:
[225] Finally we get to SACRIFICE (67/321) --SEARS:
[226] [tongue in cheek] There was this starring role in there, an incredible performance by one of the background people wearing a hood.RUDNICK:
[227] [also tongue in cheek] I hear on reliable authority he is available.SEARS:
[228] We were trying to find him to get him back for another role but we had to cast someone else. [both laugh]RUDNICK:
[229] Oh, well, that's the way it goes. [both laugh] When I first got down there and I saw your name on the script, the first thing I thought to myself was, "Steve Sears. There is going to be so much going on in this thing". I had to read it through three times before I even started to get what was going on. [Sears laughs] Because there was so much going on. And I see after the fact that a number of scenes were cut for time purposes, even after they had been shot. Not just me, but a lot of important stuff.SEARS:
[230] Right. Unfortunately, we have to make those choices. We end up with episodes that are ten, fifteen, twenty minutes over. Going back to THE GREATER GOOD (21/121), Rob Trebor constantly talks about a scene that he did in that episode that we had to cut out. It was a good scene. He was very good in it. But we had to start cutting things.[231] So yeah, a lot of good stuff didn't end up in the final cut. Also the first part was more a setup episode for the second one [SACRIFICE, Part 2 (68/322)]. Although when writing it I wrote with a specific aim as far as what I wanted to end with, which was Gabrielle stopping Xena from killing Hope.
RUDNICK:
[232] I have to say that was very successful. Did you guys deliberately do this to see how many people could hold their breath for 15 weeks?SEARS:
[233] [laughs] No, we just wanted to see how much hate mail we could get. [both laugh] And I can tell you, it's tons.RUDNICK:
[234] Really?SEARS:
[235] Well, not tons as far as SACRIFICE I (67/321), I haven't gotten any hate mail about that. I got some people who were critical about it but no hate mail. Most of the people have been very complimentary, even in the sense that they complain that they have to wait before they can find out what happened. The problem with a cliffhanger is that your audience immediately starts to try to figure our how you are going to get yourself out of it. I've read a lot of stuff on the NetForum and other places, people speculating on how we're going to do it. I can say right now that one person got it right. But that's out of the hundreds or thousands of people speculating out there. And even then, only about 80% of it was right.[236] Most people are off base completely. The idea that we kill people and they come back from the dead so easily, that's not going to be the main focus of it. That *would* be too easy. So, I wouldn't look for any kind of mind bender. But let me say this also, and you can quote this because it will be the ultimate tease: As most people know, Renee is down there filming right now. As most people now know, there's more than one character that looks like Renee. So I won't say what Renee's working on.
RUDNICK:
[237] Fair enough. I should buy stock in blood pressure medication *now*.SEARS:
[238] [laughs] Believe me, for the first few episodes I'm not planning on doing any conventions.RUDNICK:
[239] [laughs uproariously]SEARS:
[240] I said that after MATERNAL INSTINCTS (57/311) was going to air. I said, "You know, I think I'll duck the conventions for awhile. [both laugh] Because I don't want to have to answer some of the questions".
Death of a Villainess
Callisto breathes her last in SACRIFICE II.
RUDNICK:
[241] Well I think in addition to the fact that it's created a lot of angst and expectation on the part of a lot of fans, for some the image of Gabrielle going over the cliff has been eclipsed by the knowledge we've seen the last of Callisto. A lot of people are just not getting the fact that, well, TPTB have told us for awhile this was how it's going to be. We have to live with that.SEARS:
[242] It *is* a hard thing to do. Callisto is a wonderful character to write. A wonderful character to have fun with. But the dynamic of Callisto at *this* moment has run its course. Who knows, we may do a Callisto special episode sometime in the next two years. It's very possible. But as far as a recurring villain, she was becoming even more difficult to write for. Hudson obviously did what we wrote incredibly well.[243] I haven't seen all the crossover stuff she's done with Hercules. I don't watch all the stuff they do over there. But even having her in SACRIFICE (67/321) was a bit of a task to make it work correctly. Once again, it seemed like she was a tagalong, and as a villainess wasn't really effective. It's hard to keep coming up with reasons why these gods can't kill Xena. Ares isn't that hard to do because Ares has a part of him that does not want to kill Xena. He has that admiration of her. Ares is the kind of guy that even when she is beating the sh*t out of his guys, he sits back and says, "Yep, that's my girl".
RUDNICK:
[244] He also has that arrogance about him that says "You know you want me, babe".SEARS:
[245] Exactly. Eventually, he is going to turn her, in his mind. Callisto was focused. She wanted to destroy everything that Xena loved and kill Xena. Now you have to sit back and say "Okay..."RUDNICK:
[246] Once you have pretty much accomplished that...SEARS:
[247] Yeah. Many people have written me saying, "I know what you can do with Callisto and the fan fiction knows what you can do with Callisto". I've never read the fan fiction, so I can't comment. But I have certainly heard people tell me what we can do with it, with Callisto. We can explore her past, we can redeem her, and so forth. My response to that is "That series is already being done, it's called Xena". That is what Xena is. Even if you were to spin off Callisto into a series where she's redeemed, you would basically be doing Xena with blonde hair. Especially for two or three people on the Internet, they're very volatile.RUDNICK:
[248] Passions run high, I guess.SEARS:
[249] I am glad we're able to encourage those passions in people. But at a certain point you --
NetForum and E-Mail
RUDNICK:
[250] Well, there's no excuse for being rude.SEARS:
[251] Yeah, and a few of them are. I've been slammed many times and accused of many things which aren't true. As people who read the Netforum are aware, I generally only respond there if someone quotes me incorrectly or attributes something to me that's untrue. If they have their opinion of me or my work, that's fine.[252] After THE DELIVERER (50/304), I received so much mail -- it was intriguing -- never before have I ever been referred to as "disgusting" in one letter, and then read an e-mail immediately after calling me "brilliant". I had a completely wide range to choose from. I, of course, choose the "brilliant". [both laugh] I do have one policy with my e-mail that I have stuck to. If someone writes me e-mail politely criticizing something that's fine, and that's something I'll probably respond to, even if it's "thank you for the note". That's not a problem. I have a few people who will e-mail me their reactions to episodes, but a couple of people in particular have e-mailed me things that were insulting, personally insulting toward me. Of course I won't respond to those. But, then, when an episode they like airs, some of these same people send me a note and gush about how wonderful the episode was and how brilliant a Writer I am. Do they get a response then? No. Because if I give them credit for the gushes, I have to give them credit for the insults and I'm not going to do it.
[253] If somebody respectfully critiques the episode, I'll try to respond. If somebody gushes about an episode, I'll blushingly respond. If somebody insults me and slams me personally... well, you get the point.
RUDNICK:
[254] Life is too short to get caught up in all that anyway.SEARS:
[255] Yeah. The fact that we've got these passions going like this is a tribute to how well this show has managed to connect to so many different people for so many different reasons.RUDNICK:
[256] That's the interesting thing about the Internet being a two-edged sword. You can get all these interesting reactions, both good and bad, and you can stamp out wild rumors or fan the flames of controversy. It is all out there, it is all instantaneous, and it is all worldwide.SEARS:
[257] The conspiracists have a field day with that. We do *not* encourage any rumors out of here. I make it very clear that I tease about some things but it's so obvious when I do it. We never try to fan the flames. We don't need to do that, other people will do that for us. Sharon [Delaney] posted something awhile back, and when I read it, I realized how some people were going to take it. She mentioned something about a rumor being spread and she said something like "I can see where TPTB will be busy putting out rumors this year".RUDNICK:
[258] You meant "putting out" in the sense of "stamping out", not "producing".SEARS:
[259] That's it. A lot of people took that to mean we'd be "seeding rumors". It's flattering that people think we actually have time to do that. [both laugh] We just don't. Even if we wanted to do it it's not worth the effort. For one thing, it comes back and bites you in the *ss if you even tried. And for another, there's no point to it. Why would we want to try to put rumors out there?[260] One thing that was neat about SACRIFICE (67/321), and we didn't even have to do anything, so many people were so focused on Callisto dying they completely missed the fact or possibility that Gabrielle would die. It blindsided many people. Some people accused us of doing that deliberately, and we said "No, we never brought up the Callisto question, everybody else did that".
[261] It's interesting. I guess I'm one of the more prominent staff people dealing with fans on the Internet, I know that the fans want to believe that we're listening and that we're paying attention to what they are saying. I can say, "Yes, we are". But I can also say it's not making us do anything in particular or follow any particular path.
RUDNICK:
[262] I've used the analogy myself of, "Sure, you might look over the shoulder of an artist while he's painting, but would you presume to tell him what colors to use?" It is the artist's work, not the observer's.SEARS:
[263] Other people, even fans, have pointed this out, but by the third season many fans "possess" the show. And, even though you might have created it or helmed it from the beginning, *you* become the outsider. I've seen several calls for the studio to get rid of the Xenastaff. Oh, well. I don't feel insecure about my job. The truth of the matter is I love our fans. I've gotten to know several of them personally. I'll stack our fans up against any other shows fans in an instant. This actually happened, by the way. A friend on another show had seen a news report about one of the Xena conventions which played up the idea that Xenafans all dress up in costume and have no lives. Anyway, he made the comment about how the fans of his show were respectful people and mine were crazies. First of all, I corrected him by telling him that the term they prefer is Hard Core Nutballs. And I started going into the demographics of our fans and talking about the Xenafests where I really get a chance to talk to them. Finally, he looked at me and said "You realize you're defending fans?" I said "Yeah. You're wrong and they love my show. Why wouldn't I?" Maybe in retrospect I got a little huffy. Anyway, the point is that I do listen to the fans, but we can't be lead by them. Even the fans don't agree with themselves.
Joxer (and a Little Subtext)
Joxer defends Argo, knowing he's probably toast, in INTIMATE STRANGER.
RUDNICK:
[264] Joxer is a prime example there.SEARS:
[265] Joxer's a great example.RUDNICK:
[266] That is just split so down the middle, people who love the character and people who wish he'd fall off a cliff.SEARS:
[267] Yeah. I've run into a few people who had, what I felt, were very legitimate reasons why they didn't like Joxer. But a lot of people have very reactionary reasons why they don't like Joxer. A lot of them feel he interferes with the subtext. That's a non-question for me. I mean, the idea that he interferes with the subtext, as I said once "You know, having Joxer around would *lead* someone into subtext". He's the annoying brother who pops up at the wrong moment.[268] But the truth of the matter is if Joxer wasn't there, something else would take his place. It's not like Joxer is preventing Xena and Gabrielle from having sex or anything like that, they're not having sex. And that whole issue comes back to the fact a sexual act does not constitute a love relationship. The feelings that Gabrielle and Xena have for each other are love. Joxer doesn't interfere with that.
RUDNICK:
[269] The subtext is there to see if you want to see it. It is not "in your face" or overt. If you want to see that then you can interpret that.SEARS:
[270] And that's absolutely fine. The idea that Joxer is a way of getting men to muscle in on the series or that Joxer is representative of all those males that we've run into who are idiots and *sshol*s, well even if that is true, what is he in the series? An idiot. He's a bumbler.[271] In FORGET ME NOT, for many of the anti-Joxerites, let me clarify NOT all of them, but for some, this just showed me that they completely missed any kind of rationale, they're just focusing in on their hatred of Joxer, or their obsession with Joxer. People would call what Joxer was doing in FORGET ME NOT as an attempted rape. Once again using that "magical" word. That's absolutely ridiculous. There are people who said that Joxer's intent was to manipulate Gabrielle into having sex with him, that was the whole point of that. Bullshit. And you may quote me on the bullshit word. It's just the opposite. Joxer saw Gabrielle in pain. Gabrielle goes to Mnemosyne to say "I have to find out why I have these painful memories." Then he finds out that the Gabrielle in front of him has *no* memories. He thinks "What can I do? I love her, I've got to save her. I'm going to give her back all the *good* memories. Everything that's good." That's what his intent is. It's childishly naive, but he's going to try to fix the problem. When he gets into it he begins to realize he's not a part of those memories. He wants to be. His little flaw there is he's trying to put himself in, in a very benign way, but the Joxer part takes over and he elaborates on himself. It becomes a snowball effect, becoming bigger and bigger.
RUDNICK:
[272] Then he even bumbles out of that one.SEARS:
[273] Yes. But the truth is, when he gets to the end and he's won, he's put himself in her happy memories, and there's this unexpected response where she goes "Well I must be in love with you," and she grabs him. The first thing his libido tells him is "Cool!" But then his heart tells him "Wait a minute, this *isn't* what I want." To me, that's a noble character. But some people missed that. Some people decided "No matter what he does, we're going to interpret it *this* way."RUDNICK:
[274] There have been moments in Joxer's career in the show where the tenderness and emotion he has shown has almost had me in tears. That image of him sitting alone in the field after FOR HIM THE BELL TOLLS (40/216) was, for me, one of the most moving moments in the series. When Joxer defends Argo in INTIMATE STRANGER (31/207), same deal. Here's a guy who *knows* he doesn't stand a chance at anybody halfway competent, but he'll do it anyway.SEARS:
[275] That scene in INTIMATE STRANGER is a good example. There's not a woman he's trying to seduce. There's no one he's trying to impress. There's no other attempt than to save Argo. And he knows he's going to die doing it.RUDNICK:
[276] For me, those are the moments that make Joxer a good character.SEARS:
[277] And there's still that little boy that's inside of him that's a pain in the butt. However I have noticed that some people, even some anti-Joxerites, have started commenting on how cool Gabrielle and Xena seem to be toward him. Which I think is an interesting progression. Xena sees what Joxer is going through, because she knows. Gabrielle is the interesting thing. Gabrielle is doing what many people do. They tend to ignore friends, when friends want to be more than friends. They take them for granted. It's kind of like the girl sitting there talking, saying "Why can't I find a nice guy?" Then she lists all the qualities of a nice guy. The guy listening to this says "That's me, and yet she doesn't want that." Gabrielle is doing a little bit of that to Joxer. The idea of Joxer and her having a relationship is so totally out of bounds that there's not even a consideration. Those little moon eyes he gives to her she misses completely because "it couldn't possibly mean that, it means he's just... he's just Joxer!"RUDNICK:
[278] In A COMEDY OF EROS (46/222), where they are sitting around the campfire and she is going, "Me falling in love with you, isn't that funny? Ha ha ha". And Joxer goes slowly and deliberately, "Ha, ha". Oddly enough, that is one of my favorite lines in the whole series.SEARS:
[279] That was a *very* good moment for Ted. He didn't overplay it or underplay it.
The Upcoming Season
How often will Xena and Gabrielle walk into the sunset in Season Four?
RUDNICK:
[280] Just a couple more quick things, so I don't take over your life completely, and I appreciate your taking this much time and being so patient.SEARS:
[281] No problem.RUDNICK:
[282] Is there anything you would care to share about what we can expect upcoming without giving too much away? Something you are excited about or interested in, that kind of thing?SEARS:
[283] Well... [pause] Hmmm... What *can* I share about this... We're... Let's see... It's hard to tell you what we're going to end up doing. We're sticking to the format of growth with Xena. We're going to continue to explore the emotional levels of the series.[284] There are several adventure shows set up. We have a couple of shows where Xena's physical prowess definitely comes to the forefront and you sit back and go "Wow, that's an incredible hero." We have episodes, my personal favorites, where it's her brains at work. There's one thing about episodes like ONE AGAINST AN ARMY where she can go through the Persian elite force the way she does and it comes off very believable because of her passions.
[285] But there's another thing to where she's put in a situation where you would say "Okay, if Xena accomplishes this, even in our realm of belief, it's totally unbelievable." Then having her use her mind to actually accomplish it. There's one episode in particular I'm thinking of when I say that, [jokingly] one that I like and I wrote. [both laugh] And we're going to travel. Right now the plan is that Xena is going to be heading East. She has some exploration to do and some questions to answer within herself.
RUDNICK:
[286] Very interesting.SEARS:
[287] Should be.
Other Projects
RUDNICK:
[288] How about other projects that are not Xena-related? Are we ever going to see AMAZON HIGH? Are you working on anything else either tentatively or more definitely?SEARS:
[289] I don't know about AMAZON HIGH. That gets bounced back and forth. I don't know where it is at this moment, but I'm not involved with that so I don't really know a lot about it. I do know it turned out very well. I know that a few networks are taking a look at it, or syndicated networks as well, for the possibility of producing it. So I would say it's on pretty good legs right now.RUDNICK:
[290] Good.SEARS:
[291] As far as personal projects go, well, XENA takes up the majority of my time, obviously, and I'm under contract to XENA. I am free to write movies or pilots if I so desire. At the moment I do have a pilot deal with Rysher Entertainment which will not interfere with XENA. Also when you're on a high profile show you become attractive to people. I've certainly had a lot of interest. I've had other shows offered to me for more money and a better title, and I've turned them down because I love this show. It's not about money. I'd much rather give up the extra money if I can be happy.[292] And Bret... About SACRIFICE I.... don't give up the day job yet, babe.
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Biography
Bret Rudnick
Whoosh! Staff
IAXS Executive Committee
"You can never have too much money or too many Amazons"
When he's not working for a big Science/Engineering company that (amongst other things) designs, builds, launches, and operates exploratory spacecraft, Bret writes fantasy novels and short stories. Bret is a man of many skills, having also previously been an Olympic-qualified archer, a drummer in the Butch Grinder Band, a news reader for Public Television Station KVCR, and a Deputy Sheriff for the County of San Bernardino, California. He also collects Japanese swords, armor, and art. He and his dog hunt down stray Bacchae in New England.
Favorite episode: HOOVES AND HARLOTS (10/110), WARRIOR...PRINCESS...TRAMP (30/206), and THE QUEST (37/213)
Favorite line: Xena: "What's this?" Gabrielle: "I'm... an amazon princess?" Xena (rolls eyes): "Great." HOOVES AND HARLOTS, 10/110; Xena after being goosed by Joxer: "Are you suicidal?" WARRIOR...PRINCESS...TRAMP, 30/206; Joxer: "Ha. Ha." A COMEDY OF EROS (46/222); Autolycus: "I'm not just leering at scantily clad women, you know, I'm working!" THE QUEST (37/213)
First episode seen: CRADLE OF HOPE (04/104)
Least favorite episode: GIANT KILLER (27/203)
